Grab your head bandages and clear your desks, Tor.commers, for the Wheel of Time Reread Redux is back!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapter 27 of The Shadow Rising, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Before we begin, a reminder that the format of the Reread Redux has changed: from now on I am only going to be commenting on chapters in which my reaction has changed significantly from before, based on the knowledge I had at the time.
Although once again, this time we aren’t skipping anything, so as you were.
Onward!
Chapter 27: Within the Ways
Redux Commentary
Her full armed slap made spots dance in front of his eyes. “What did you mean,” she practically spat, “charging in here like a wild boar? You have no regard. None!”
He took a slow, deep breath. “I asked you before not to do that.” Her dark, tilted eyes widened as if he had said something infuriating. He was rubbing his cheek when her second slap caught him on the other side, nearly unhinging his jaw. The Aiel were watching interestedly, and Loial with his ears drooping.
“I told you not to do that,” he growled. Her fist was not very big, but her sudden punch to his shortribs drove most of the air from his lungs, hunching him over sideways, and she drew back her fist again. With a snarl, he seized her by the scruff of her neck and…
Well, it was her own fault. It was. He had asked her not to hit him, told her. Her own fault. He was surprised she had not tried to pull one of her knives, though; she seemed to carry as many as Mat.
She had been furious, of course. Furious with Loial for trying to intervene; she could take care of herself, thank you very much. Furious with Bain and Chiad for not intervening; she had been taken aback when they said they did not think she would want them to interfere in a fight she had picked. When you choose the fight, Bain had said, you must take the consequences, win or lose. But she did not seem even the tiniest bit angry with him any longer. That made him nervous. She had only stared at him, her dark eyes glistening with unshed tears, which made him feel guilty, which in turn made him angry. Why should he be guilty? Was he supposed to stand there and let her hit him to her heart’s content? She had mounted Swallow and sat there, very stiff-backed, refusing to sit gingerly, staring at him with an unreadable expression. It made him very nervous. He almost wished she had pulled a knife. Almost.
Ah, the Great Spanking Debacle of 2009. I remember it well. I’m pretty sure we all do.
(Even so, you will most likely want to go and refresh your memory of my original commentary for this post to fully make sense. And if you have time to peruse the comments, that’s worth a gander too.)
I gave some serious thought to simply skipping this chapter altogether, along with the rather large can of worms it opened. And I’m sure that there are probably some readers who would prefer that. But I decided upon reflection that I really could not do that, because what happened as a result of my original commentary on this chapter has had way too much impact, both on the Reread and on myself personally, to ignore. Also, I would be remiss if I did not take the chance to expand upon and/or clarify my position on the matter after having taken in the original responses to it.
It seems naïve in retrospect to say that I was shocked by the storm of controversy I triggered by my negative reaction to Perrin spanking Faile, but I really was. Shocked, I mean. And also naïve, actually. By 2009 I had been online for more than long enough to know that certain topics are practically guaranteed to bring out the vitriol in any online forum, but even so I don’t think it occurred to me, when writing that post, that the actual question of “whether it’s okay for a dude to spank his girlfriend” was one that there would be any controversy over whatsoever.
And, well. I got schooled on that assumption mighty quick, didn’t I.
Now, in comparison to your average Internet flamewar (especially these days), The Spanking Thread was actually pretty mild, and after the initial flareups and a few cautionary comments from the mods, the discussion mostly settled down. (At least as far down as I read, this time around; I confess I ran out of steam somewhere in the 200s.) For the most part, it was a reasonable, interesting debate, in fact.
That said, some of the sentiments expressed therein, even when presented calmly, I found anywhere from lightly upsetting to deeply disturbing—mostly, in the latter case, because the commenters themselves seemed to have no idea of what it was they were implying.
The biggest one of these was the “you act like a child, you get spanked like a child” comments. There were a number of these in various forms, but they generally boiled down to expressing how they didn’t understand what the big deal was in the first place: why shouldn’t he have spanked her? Frequently concurrent with this sentiment was the opinion that Perrin’s response to Faile’s attack on him was in fact laudable because it “punished” her bad behavior in a way that “did no lasting harm”.
First of all, the claim that being publicly humiliated in front of your entire circle of peers at the moment does “no lasting harm” is frankly astounding. The Aiel and Loial might have happened to have thought it of little consequence (which is fucked up in its own way), but if this had happened in front of other people Faile would need to command obedience and/or respect from, it could have wrecked any chance of that happening ever. Could you respect someone who’d just been turned over and paddled in front of you?
But far more than that, I found this disturbing because, among other things, it inherently implies the belief that (a) Perrin has every right to decide whether Faile deserves “punishment” for “acting out” and (b) he has the right to both decide what that punishment is and to mete it out himself.
And you know what, if he was her father, he would have that right (up to a point). But Perrin is most decidedly NOT her father. And to blithely assign Faile’s love interest—or any male in her life other than her actual father, in fact—the punitive power of a parental authority figure is, to put it baldly, some deeply messed up hyper-patriarchal bullshit, y’all.
That is in fact the textbook definition of patriarchy, equating women to children—reducing them to permanently immature weaker beings who must be protected and disciplined by the stronger more rational wiser male authority figure(s) in their lives. That so many of the comments advocating the “good punishment” argument seemed to fail to even notice this connotation of their words was, in a word, unsettling.
Basically I don’t think this would at ALL have been the response had it been the other way around, or if both Faile and Perrin had been male. Of course, if Faile had been a man, it almost certainly would never have occurred to Perrin (or Jordan) to retaliate with a spanking in the first place. Which is exactly my point.
So what should Perrin have done, then, you ask, in the face of a woman continuing to attack him even after repeated requests to stop?
Well, that’s a good question. I just know that the answer to it is not frickin’ spanking.
As I said in the original commentary (if somewhat hesitantly), context matters. The important factor in how Perrin should have responded to Faile’s violence is not whether she is a woman, but what was appropriate under the circumstances. If Faile had been attacking with the intent to kill or seriously injure Perrin, then Perrin had every right to defend himself, violently if need be. But, it’s obvious here that serious injury was not Faile’s intent, because a woman who can kill a Trolloc with a thrown dagger can certainly make a very good try at maiming and/or killing the shit out of someone should she want to. So the question becomes murkier.
She was instead, as many commenters rightly pointed out, trying to provoke a response from Perrin. And I will also agree that, owing to her whackadoodle upbringing, she probably wanted that response to be aggressive, maybe even violent. What I absolutely do not think she either expected or wanted that response to be, was spanking.
Or at least I really hope that is not what we were supposed to believe. Whatever else I might want to say about Saldaean notions of romance, it’s at least pretty clear that it’s meant to show that the husband respects his wife’s strength even if (apparently) his must always be greater. I utterly fail to understand, then, how the degradation of treating someone like a recalcitrant child could possibly be construed as showing respect in any way whatsoever.
In other words, what happened here, as far as I can tell, is that Perrin chose a response which even Faile’s barmy cultural expectations found awful, which is saying something.
In any case, just because Faile wanted Perrin to come over all Saldaean and return violence for violence doesn’t mean he had to rise to the bait. Under the circumstances he could not have realistically walked away from her, perhaps (which would have been the most ideal response, to my mind), but if he was able to “seize her by the scruff of the neck” and spank her, then he was certainly capable of restraining her in a way that would stop her but not hurt her. In fact I’d be willing to bet that successfully restraining Faile would have actually done the trick, in that it would have satisfied her apparent need for Perrin to prove he is stronger than her without having to humiliate and infantilize her the way spanking did.
But you know, the more I get into the details the more it annoys me, because the whole situation is borked from the start. As commenter Ian Hurst put it, “[Jordan] wrote an abusive, manipulative woman into Perrin’s life, and then wrote Perrin reciprocating rather than rejecting her abuse, and living happily ever after as a result.” Basically I find the idea of actually wanting a relationship based on mutual aggression to be a completely incomprehensible concept to begin with, so trying to extrapolate what would have been an appropriate response for Perrin that isn’t simply “dump her ass and walk away” is… difficult.
But again, whatever the right response was, spanking wasn’t it.
*obligatory headdesk for old times’ sake*
Anyway. The whole thing was an eye-opening experience for me, to say the least. If nothing else, it definitely taught me to examine my unexamined assumptions about things.
But the most instructive (and gratifying) part of it was seeing how the Reread’s readers encompassed their first flamewar, calmed the furor, and then let it become part of the shared history that makes a community. You know you have a community when you have inside jokes about crazy shit we all did back in the day. I myself got the proof of that from my Rereaders at JordanCon 2012, in hilarious fashion:
Heh. Don’t get me wrong, I still feel strongly about this whole thing (clearly), but never let it be said I can’t laugh at myself while I’m at it. Thanks again, O My Peeps.
And I’m spent, so here we stop. Remember, if you start another flamewar in the comments you will have your Irony license revoked for at least a year, and we wouldn’t want that. So be good, for goodness’ sake, and I’ll be back in two weeks with Moar!
— deleted. I removed my comment because I can see where this is going.
Maybe Faile wanted to be spanked or otherwise manhandled. Her culture may not have anything to do with it; she may just be into spanking.
As this is the re-read which has the advantage of using the knowledge of all the books to the end I am surprised the other element of spanking and how it was used in the book was not presented.
Cadsuane spanked Semirage specifically to break her and make her lose her authority and presence of fear in front of the other Aes Sedai. (and maids and Asha Man)
Granted this was Sanderson completing the works but it is entirely possible the scene was blocked or at least noted if not mostly written.
The other relevant scene to connect with this early relationship development is the picnic where Perrin and Faile reveal more about themselves after the internment and escape from the Shaido camp. Both have matured and react to each other differently because of events and personal growth.
Just an observation. I am unable to expand upon the points as I am at work.
@2 If she’s into it, she should have had a reasonable discussion about it and then not included bystanders in her foreplay.
@3 The Semirage scene does make this scene squickier.
I have a different take on Faile’s unshed tear. Below is Leigh’s original commentary:
“What makes him most nervous is that while she was furious with everyone else – Loial for trying to intervene, Bain and Chiad for not intervening (they said they thought she would not want them to step into a fight she had picked) – she was not furious with him, instead looking at him with unshed tears in her eyes.”
Given what we later lean about Saldean women (and how they want to be treated by their lovers), I think Faile’s unshed tear was a tear of joy: not a tear of pain or embarrassment. I think Faile was happy with Perrin’s response.
From a RL perspective, anything Perrin did would raise hackles with various commentators. Had Perrin punched Faile in the face (as he surely would have done had Faile been a man), commentators would have been outraged. Had he slapped her, I think there would have been a similar outcry. Had he walked away, other commentators would have thought Perrin was turning into a Tinker.
On a different topic, post Last Battle, I hope the Ways are cleaned and the Black Wind is no longer. However, if the darkening of the Ways is akin to the effects of saidin on men pre-cleansing, then the Ways will not revert back to what it used to be. It just will not get any worse. Those men who suffered effects of the Taint did not loose their “madness”. Nynaeve had to take affirmative action to heal the madness. Likewise, I do not think the Ways will be clean again without a “cleansing” by channelers. But hopefully I am wrong.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
A slap with an open hand is going to be inappropriate since it’s traditionally been a way for a man to hit a woman and get away with it, or to hit another man in such a way as to insult him by implying that he is too feminine to merit a punch. A punch with a closed fist is going to be inappropriate since it’s both incommensurate force and a very strong (physically) individual laying out a weaker one (which isn’t to say not strong, just objectively not as physically powerful). A spanking is going to be inappropriate since it’s reserved for parent-child discipline.
About the only things Perrin could have done would be one of three options: to walk away, to restrain her without striking her, or to ignore her altogether (turning the other cheek, as it were). Walking away would have been difficult, especially since she was studiously dogging his route and he had neither will nor ability to change his own course. Restraining her without striking her would have been difficult, especially as he lacks any training outside of his forge skills and his limited axmanship lessons from Lan. Ignoring her and allowing her to continue to slap him would have required a degree of saintliness that is not naturally present in any human being, and lacking the example of Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit would not be something he could be expected either to think of or to pull off successfully.
In short, every option he had was either bad or unworkable. I’d have favored something more along the lines of a law enforcement response, namely seizing her wrists as she is striking him and then binding them behind her back (or in front of her and also tied to the saddle horn), followed by treating her as a captured criminal until such time as she gives him her parole or they reach a point where he can reasonably separate his group from hers. Unfortunately, it’s quite difficult to restrain a subject and tie a rope to bind the subject’s hands, unless you have a partner or a strange mutation that lets you have four or more arms. I’m not sure how responsive any of the other companions would have been to tying her up.
Maybe he could have given her a literal slap on the wrist?
*Looks back at the original post and nearly 350 comments*
I can’t believe I re-read the whole thing. Wow. Good times.
Clearly Leigh’s reaction and take home from the scene is different from what the author intended. I think the appropriate direction to cast one’s ire with scene is at the author, not necessarily furiously debate what Perrin should/shouldn’t have done. RJ seems to have intended this scene to be one where the reader’s sympathies are with Perrin, either in a caviler “Women, watcha gonna do?” type sentiment or some variation of “He done showed her he was strong, and would not be a push over” or “Men or from Mars, Saldeans are from…hell”. It seems that Faile clearly wanted some reaction along those lines, if not precisely the one she got, but I’m frankly not even sure that she was not pleased with the outcome (messed up, I know).
I’m going to say that I think you’re absolutely dead wrong, here. And I think I know why. Looking back at your re-read for the chapter when Perrin meets Lord and Lady Bashere, you seem to interpret Lady Bashere’s statement differently. Or you don’t give enough weight to some of her words, in my opinion. From the book:
I read that as Davram Bashere did pretty much the same exact thing to Deira Bashere as Perrin did to Faile. Likely for the same reason. During this speech, Perrin looks to Faile and she gives him “no help” by smiling at him encouragingly. I point this out to make the case that she is clearly not surprised by what her mother is saying. She’s heard this story before.
Now, in your re-read, you paraphrase the above quoted section thusly:
This makes me think that you don’t believe Davram spanked her. And perhaps he didn’t. Perhaps he did something I’d consider worse. I don’t want to list things that he might have done (some of the things that come to mind might require trigger warnings), but the point is, Faile has been brought up to believe this absolutely crazy (to us) notion that “a woman requires a firm hand in a husband.”
That this outrages you (and many others) is to be expected. In a similar vein to the slavery that is discussed later, in fact. I don’t defend the thought process (it’s utter lunacy) BUT, I DO acknowledge that there were (are!) societies with customs like this.
My only point of contention with this post is to posit the opinion that Faile got precisely what she wanted/expected out of Perrin.
What? No, officer. That’s not my can of gasoline. I have no idea how it got in here. Someone else must have left it. And this lit match I’m holding? Totally unrelated. That’s for… ummm… sterilizing a sewing needle. I got a really bad splinter in my finger piling up all that wood over there behind that gas can, which, again, totally isn’t mine at all.
:->
Personally I agree with #8 and #9, but I think reasonable arguments exist on both sides.
I am going to have to go back to see what (if anything) I contributed to the original post – might have been before I was as involved on Tor – but I have to agree with 9 in that, regardless of what WE think of the appropriateness, I think it IS what Faile wanted. I also agree it’s lunacy (and I otherwise actually love Faile).
As for what Perrin could have done – in a way I kind of didn’t blame him for spanking her, but I definitely was not thinking of it in terms of ‘punishment’, ‘putting her in her place’, etc – which, as you bring up (along with the cultural connotations surrounding spanking) really do make good points about why that reaction, specifically, is a bit icky. In some ways it might have been more acceptable if he had just slapped her (I’ve never actually heard about the association with it being a way to insinuate somebody is feminine, etc) or pushed her away. I am not saying EITHER is right; of course he should have just walked away or physically restrained her if he could (I personally believe in only using the minimum amount of force necessary to stop somebody) – but I can also understand that he’s eventually going to get frustrated/angry and lash out and it’s not necessarily about gender (with the exception of using the choice of spanking). One DOES wonder if it was a young teenaged boy (Faile is only 14 or something at this point, right?) if he would have done a similar thing since in his mind he would have been a child.
Also, unfortunately, there definitely are some bullies where the old ‘just ignore them and they’ll go away becuase they can’t get a rise out of you’ just doesn’t work and really the only thing that they undrestand/respect is a show of strength/violence. As I said, I like Faile, and I don’t view her as a bully, specifically (there are probably others who do) but her culture definitely has aspects of that.
Anyway, not one of their best moments for sure, and it’s hard to say what exactly RJ intended us to think of it; are we supposed to see the lunacy for what it is, or just think it’s a perfectly normal way to conduct a relationship.
Lisamarie,
I think Faile is about 18 years old at this point. I doubt she is 14. She marries Perrin a few months later. Even for Randland, marrying off a girl at 14 or 15 is a bit too young.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
I had two brothers, two and three years younger than I, and i was expected to keep them in line (not kill each other) without excessive force. I could restrain one, but if they both went at me my choices were escalate (hurting them and getting in trouble later) or getting beat up. I became pretty good at defense and restraint.
This did not help with an ex-gf who had been expelled from her school for fighting. She regretted it, she knew at the time it wasn’t smart, yet she couldn’t control herself. She was mostly better in her 20s, but once I found it necessary to restrain her by the wrists- and it was like taking on a 105 lb bobcat.
I dunno, I guess few things are ever black and white.
@12 – I don’t know where I was getting that impression; but I thought I remembered her being younger than one would initially have assumed. Maybe 14 is a bit of an exaggeration :)
Maybe because pre Malden, Faile acted like a 14 year old spoiled brat :)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
Culture clash. Plain and simple. Two twitterpated young adults persecuting their respective upbringings on each other out of anger, arrogance, and uncommunicated expectations. They do much better as a couple later on as they both mature.
I remember when I was talking to a newlywed couple at a social event and over the course of the conversation she asserted quite matter of factly that she expected him to be the head of the household. A very strong willed young lady married to a gentle young man, I doubt she saw the irony in the moment. Forcing someone into any expectation is going to eventually backfire. If they make it and figure things out I’m sure they’ll be a great couple.
Edit: I’ve found it doesn’t matter how big my phone is, I will always make spelling errors. And the website is giving me guff about he corrections. Sigh.
My favorite moment of the first reread comments was pablodefendini’s edit @137. Reminded me of an out of control marriage counseling session.
Well, that’s a good question. I just know that the answer to it is not frickin’ spanking.
I’m not sure this is a reasonable comment. You can’t just say “his response was wrong” and not have a workable alternative. Faile has spent the entirety of TSR at that point acting like a bratty, jealous child. Which culminates in tricking Loial into putting Perrin into an insanely dangerous situation, for the express purpose of breaking him in and making him more compliant with her wishes. She is explicit about that; she specifically tells Perrin she wants him to follow at her heels like a dog. I’m not even making the “act like a child, treated like a child” argument. I’m saying that every argument you are applying to the repercussions of Perrin’s actions towards Faile, are exactly the same in reverse, just in a magnified manner. That authorial choice avoided making that explicit doesn’t make it any less so. Isn’t it equally sexist to pretend that women treating men in an emasculating (bad word for this, but probably appropriate) manner isn’t an attempt to undermine their authority in their peer group, as it is to pretend that spanking another human being is an attempt to undermine their authority in their peer group?
If you think spanking is an inappropriate response, then come up with a better one. Perrin is being violently physically assaulted, and not gently. And within the context of where they are, it’s even worse. And why? Because Perrin refuses to bow to Faile’s whims? If anything, Perrin and Faile seem to be aiming for similar ends here, the assertion of authority in the relationship. And when considered in that light, Perrin is far, far more restrained in his response than Faile is.
I didn’t notice he had spanked her the first time I read it. I noticed only on the first time it was mentioned in the re-read. I think a better response would’ve been shaking her and yelling “STOP”. It wouldn’t be so loaded with a parent-child dynamics as spanking is.
Very interesting post Kalvin made at @9. The similarity in language (which with Jordan is almost always on purpose) probably means that a similar situation happened with Deina and Davram and that we, as the audience, must recognize the second dialogue as having something to do with the spanking.
Then comes the matter of what the author intended for the audience to think about this spanking incident. When Mat is courting Tuon and Tuon says things like “my father died of a bad wager” or “I miss my damane” (and Noal says he thinks her damane misses her as well), I think Jordan is trying to shock the audience with how different her culture is. Mat is clearly thinking “Who the fuck is this woman I’m going to marry??!!!”, the reader is supposed to think like that as well, and the reader is also supposed to be amused by the culture shock. A similar thing happens with Aviendha-Rand.
What exactly is Jordan trying to convey when he has Perrin spank Faile (and she’s kind of OK with that, by the end of the book they get married and he doesn’t even need to apologize to her for that), and later another dialogue in which Deina kind of implies that her husband has done a similar thing? I wonder if he was going for the culture shock angle (like Mat-Tuon dialogue) or more towards a “she-deserved-it” angle or “isn’t that funny” angle? Later, at the beginning of the plotline of Doom, Faile is again spanked. This time by Rolan, the Aiel who captured her (he spanks her naked butt sometimes to keep her awake while they’re travelling in the midst of snow). I wonder if that time (with Rolan) the intent wasn’t kind of erotic, or to indulge the author in his fetish. Not trying to provoke another flamewar, but spanking and corporal punishment appear a lot of times in Jordan’s work, I have to wonder if he didn’t just put it there because he liked it. With Faile being captured, the description could’ve been cut out a lot (but then again this is Jordan at the middle-books, he doesn’t cut any description at all).
This is completely OT for this particular thread, but completely On Topic for the entire series: I just realized where Robert Jordan got the two words Aes Sedai from. I was looking up the mythology of Ireland, as you do, and a certain set of personages known as Aos Sí cropped up. Intrigued I read more: older form aes sídhe … They are said to live … in an invisible world that coexists with the world of humans.
quoted from the Wikipedia article.
The WOT’s basic mythology is based on various versions of Irish mythology and folk-lore: and Aes Sedai is a mildly altered version of Aos Sidhe: the Aes Sedai live completely apart in a world of their own, and I could go on …
Well. After thinking about this a lot since this post was made last week, I finally feel ready to share. Because I realized that if I had been around for the first iteration of the infamous Spanking Debate, I would have been in the same position as Past Leigh when she first came online, way back when, discovered the huge flamewar over Tylin raping Mat, and was utterly bemused and confused by it. Not because I found Perrin spanking Faile funny (far from it), but because…I wouldn’t have gotten why Leigh (and others) were so upset about it. Because, I have to be honest, I would have been one of those saying “what’s wrong with this? She acted like a child, she deserved to be punished like one.” (And this coming from someone who actually liked Faile most of the time! Though admittedly this was not one of her more shining moments.)
This is not because I think women are inferior (or should be treated as such, including in being punished), but because I specifically thought she had renounced all right to be treated like an adult for how she was treating Perrin. As Bain and Chiad said, she started this fight and doesn’t get to pout because of Perrin ending it so decisively, and he absolutely should not have just let her keep slapping him. And before anyone says anything, yes, if it had been the man acting this way (or there were two men), I actually would have supported having the offending male be spanked for being immature. (As a prime example, there were a number of times in the first two books I thought Mat could have done with a good paddling.) This probably says more about my own experiences with corporal punishments (namely, they hurt, and I resented them, but I also realized I had done wrong and deserved them, and became a better, more well-behaved person because of them) than it does about my feelings on gender relations.
But as I thought more about this scene, I realized pretty much all the things Leigh has said here. That even if I (and Perrin, and Jordan) thought Faile had abrogated a right to being treated like an adult, that didn’t give Perrin the right to make the judgment or assign a punishment for it, let alone carry it out. That whether or not he or Jordan meant to give that impression, it very much does come across as partaking of the patriarchy that demeans and dismisses women as having value and equality. That specifically for someone who is supposed to love her, and is a potential love interest for her, having Perrin do this just feels wrong when compared to her age and the role he was actually assuming by doing this. And that the punishment goes far beyond just making her stop slapping him–even if it can be argued it’s really the culmination of how she’s been treating Perrin, and it’s for all of that that she’s being punished, it still goes into a level of humiliation and emotional hurt that will indeed have lasting damage.
In fairness, Perrin does feel rather bad about it, if not as much as or for the reasons he should. But overall, the scene does play out as leaving a bad taste in the mouth. The only thing I can add is to point out that, even if he doesn’t realize it consciously, I think the reason Perrin could do this is because it’s part of the same attitude he’s had ever since wanting to leave Tear without Faile, and especially once he learned about the Whitecloaks in the Two Rivers. He couldn’t make her leave him by pretending to be interested in Berelain (*headdesk*) and he couldn’t make her stay behind thanks to her manipulating that oath out of Loial. So all he can do, he thinks, is make her hate him…so that even though she is likely to be nearby if not an actual witness when he gives himself up to the Whitecloaks and is executed, at least this way (he thinks) it won’t hurt her the way it would otherwise. So if spanking her will keep her from suffering when the Whitecloaks end his life, he’ll do it.
All of that said, my only conclusion is: shame on you, Past Me. But at least I understand now why this whole thing was so important, so out-of-character, and so wrong. And I have to agree that simply restraining her would have gone far toward stopping her, teaching her a lesson, and proving his greater strength to her. Heck, I’d argue it actually would still be humiliating to her (but the right kind, the kind she might have wanted as he made her swallow her pride and showed why he was worthy of being her husband through proving he was not a doormat). And…the thought of Faile just dangling there, spluttering and fuming, is actually rather funny. (On a related note, even if I understand now why she got so mad, I still can’t help finding Leigh’s past meltdown as funny as I did the first time, just because of the way she phrased it all. And, of course, the fandom turning it into a hilarious running gag.)
Hmm…anything else? Well, just to continue reiterating why her attitude was annoying, Faile getting Perrin to come to the Guiding “just to see if he could be taught to come when she calls” is as dismissive of his value and equality as his spanking was of her. He’s a wolf, not a dog, thank you! And speaking of wolves, I’d forgotten about how Perrin nearly lost it over the Fade; there was more than just Noam to make him worry about losing himself in the wolf, so it’s another point underscoring why his “emo-ness” is more understandable later.
Machin Shin, by the way, is still I think the scariest thing Jordan ever came up with. It’s a combination of what it does, that we don’t know what it is and never will, and the way he describes it… *shudders* You can actually feel sorry for those Trollocs caught by it! I also noticed this time the lines “Tiny souls. Acrid souls.” This seems to indicate to me that Machin Shin sees souls as something harmful and repugnant (“bitter blood”), perhaps because they are things of life? And also it sees the living as inferior and worthless, pathetic little flames existing only to be consumed by it before they wink out. A Million is a Statistic, indeed. That right there tells you all you need to know about it.
I have to end by saying though that I thought Faile tending Perrin’s wounds actually was rather sweet–and having her mutter and grumble at him the whole time actually was quite amusing. I especially liked her “that’s just like you, dying and leaving me the work of burying you.” I can totally see Faile as the sort of person who’d say “If you ever die on me, I’ll kill you!”
Oh and Leigh? Love the cut-text you used this time, and its appearance in the original reread. Particularly since there’s nothing non-consensual, squicky, or disturbing at all in how Jareth treats Sarah and expects her to treat him. Nope. No siree. *whistles and swing arms back and forth* Oh look, puppies and rainbows!
@2 ragnarredbeard: While there are certainly people who are, I believe most of them (like anyone in the S&M/BDSM scene) want it to be consensual.
@3 Longtimefan: Re: the Cadsuane scene, when it came up Leigh didn’t have any problems with it at all, for precisely the reasons you described (and that it was being done to a villain, whose gender had nothing to do with it, but was also being administered by another woman just in case it does matter). Or is that your point, that that scene shows what purpose spanking is supposed to have and thus renders this one much more uncomfortable in retrospect? If so…yes, yes it does. As for Sanderson, he did say (I can’t remember if it was Leigh or one of the commenters who mentioned it) that the spanking of Semirhage was specifically in Jordan’s notes, and that he was very uncomfortable writing it but went ahead anyway.
The interesting thing about ToM is that it also has a moment when Faile reflects back on this moment in the Ways (without mentioning exactly what happened) and notes she doesn’t even remember what she was mad about, that had led to the attitude and actions from her that prompted Perrin’s actions. So that too, like the picnic scene, shows how much she has changed and matured. And suggests that even if she did want an aggressive response from Perrin, even this specific response, she has come to see she was wrong for doing so. Whether that’s Faile maturing enough to understand she can’t and shouldn’t make Perrin adopt her culture, or Sanderson changing Faile to make her more palatable to modern audiences and thus avoid the upset, disgust, and rejection so many fans have had to Perrin/Faile (or this specific moment in their relationship), is up for debate. But it is important to note there was a change, and it seems in some way to be in response to this moment in the Ways.
@@.-@ noblehunter: Exactly.
@5 AndrewHB: Hmmm…I can see your point, and indeed Jordan didn’t tell us at all what Faile was feeling in that moment (nor does he when we get back in her head later, as I recall) other than that she wasn’t furious. The natural response is for us to think they stemmed from pain, shame, or some other negative emotion, and Jordan had to know that’s what we’d assume until he reveals otherwise later (the scene with Deira mentioned below); it’s hard to imagine she was happy, but maybe she was. The fact she still seems mad at him when tending his wounds makes it a bit murkier, but that could just be because he got himself hurt again (and tried to protect her), not due to the spanking. Even if this is the case though (and you’re quite right about what the reactions to Perrin’s other possible responses would have been), all this scene really underscores is that the real problem is a) Jordan making Saldaean culture so whackadoodle in the first place and b) Jordan creating a situation like this where no matter what Perrin did it would make him look bad.
As for the Ways, you’re right. And since when the Wheel turns around again we can presume the Ways have to be created brand-new and pristine again (rather than the men cleansing what’s already there), then actually we have to assume that sometime between now and then, the Ways simply have to be destroyed somehow. Maybe they just keep deteriorating because of the taint left in them? Or Machin Shin causes their destruction somehow, and then starves to “death”?
@6 Porphyrogenitus: Maybe Bain and Chiad would have helped tie her, until she calmed down or apologized? They wouldn’t come to her aid, but they might come to his since they had agreed she had to face the consequences of the fight she started, and that includes being restrained.
“Slap on the wrist.” Hah. That…might have actually worked, if he could have been fast enough.
@8 gadget: Considering Jordan never intended the Mat/Tylin thing to be seen as rape, and never got why readers were upset about it, I think it’s safe to say his views of men and women and how they interact, and just as importantly how this would look to people with other perspectives, were…less than satisfying. What makes it worse (and odder), of course, is that Harriet had no problems with either of these scenes. There’s no way to say this without it sounding bad, but…could it have something to do with being Southern? Because there are times Perrin and Faile remind me very much of Rhett and Scarlett, particularly the film versions, and as much as there is passive-aggressiveness hidden under the genteel surface, I think Southern culture has not always been very fair to its women. But growing up within it, Robert and Harriet could have simply accepted it as normal, the way things are, without questioning it or considering other perspectives.
But then again, as someone commented in the original re-read, maybe the point was just that Perrin needed to grow a backbone/show his respect for her strength by treating her as if she can handle his, his refusal to do so caused her to push him too far into something even other Saldaeans wouldn’t approve of, and the point of going through the abuse was to make them both better, stronger people who would learn from it and never do it again (and neither does, at least so far as their relationship is concerned). And it just looks otherwise to us because of the very strong connotations spanking, and violence against women, have in most of our cultures. Still doesn’t change the fact it does look and feel bad, and that either Jordan somehow missed that it would, or he thought we’d be discerning enough, and mentally/emotionally strong enough, to see why he was doing this and not just reject Saldaea/Perrin/Faile/WOT because of it. If the latter, I think that is less him overestimating us than underestimating the effects of those ingrained beliefs. And that even if the lesson is needed and insightful, it’s still very uncomfortable…and it can’t be denied he probably could have expressed it or included it in a much better, more subtle and balanced and cautious way.
Again, the example of Mat/Tylin shows Jordan did have his own blind spots and times he didn’t foresee or interpret how things would appear, what the reactions would be. He clearly wanted us to think, but I doubt he wanted to stir us up so painfully–or at least, he wanted us to be stirred up for a purpose and only so much as was needed, not something so excessive, chaotically diffuse, and in the end pointless.
@9 KalvinKingsley: I had forgotten the exact wording of what Deira said. That is…sobering, unsettling, and rather heart-sinking to contemplate. I think you may be right. In which case I can only reiterate (as do you) how wrong such a culture and thinking are, and this is why so many have responded badly to this scene, despite it very possibly being what Faile wanted.
@13 sps49: Good point. But of course Perrin is superstrong (see him lifting that huge bar off the warehouse door in So Habor in CoT), so him being able to restrain Faile without hurting her is probably a no-brainer, even if she fights more like a leopard. :P
@18 Andrew: Good point re: Faile’s treatment of Perrin being equally bad in terms of their relationship (and I think emasculating is exactly the right word, actually). As someone in the original reread said in criticism of the spanking, you don’t hurt someone you are supposed to love, but–and adding the but here is not defending it, as he claimed–Faile had also hurt Perrin, someone she is supposed to love! Granted that is due to her culture, but since so many are fine with criticizing Jordan for writing the Saldaeans like this (and personally I agree it is very troubling and problematic, and I don’t think he realized the full extent of what such a culture would have upon the readers), this should also be applied in what Faile did to Perrin herself, not just what she forced (and even expected) him to do to her.
Which is why I think it is so important Sanderson had Faile realize she was immature and stupid in the Ways, and also had her and Perrin get along better, without the fight for authority displayed here. Because while you could say once Perrin proved his masterfulness here meant the issue was decided and thus didn’t need to be brought up again (hardly the case, what with the whole Berelain mess), the simple fact Faile’s maturity changed her view of this period in their relationship shows that, even if what she wanted from him was right by her culture’s views, she is tacitly acknowledging she went about getting it in the wrong way.
One thing though: I don’t think it’s exactly fair for you to single out that one line of Leigh’s. Because while it is important to offer alternatives when criticizing, this ignores the fact she spent the next several paragraphs dissecting and analyzing the situation and the possible responses to it, and does in fact offer an alternative: “if he was able to ‘seize her by the scruff of the neck’ and spank her, then he was certainly capable of restraining her in a way that would stop her but not hurt her.” Whether this solution would have worked is something that can be debated, but Leigh did offer it.
@21: Machin Shin is talking about bitter Trolloc blood and acrid Trolloc souls, because Evil Is Not Tasty in this story. I don’t think it minds the flavor of human ones.
I just thought up a long response to almuric’s questions about Trollocs in the original post…and Tor isn’t letting me comment via my computer, only my phone. *sulk*
I think there are 2 separate issues here…
1, If a Man should Hit a Woman (In Any Situation)
2. Whether or not Perrin’s actions were appropriate to the circumstances
The answer to the 1st one is obvious except in Life/Death situations
The answer to the 2nd one is where the hubbub is going on. Leigh asked the question, “…but if this had happened in front of other people Faile would need to command obedience and/or respect from, it could have wrecked any chance of that happening ever. Could you respect someone who’d just been turned over and paddled in front of you?”
I counter that w/ was Faile in the Wrong for hitting someone in the 1st place? Not once have I read or seen in the orig. post that it was wrong for Faile to hit Perrin only that Perrin was in the wrong for “Spanking” her. That being said if this was 2 men or 2 women the issue is moot. (Please note I am taking the cultural issue out of this)
If men hit woman “Bad” but if woman hit man, man cannot respond physically even after one says no. Doesn’t no mean no anymore?? Just something to think about.
@@.-@. noblehunter
I suspect that the entire point of enjoying a spanking is enjoying the loss of control. Having a reasonable discussion about it might be akin to penciling in 15 minutes of spontaneity at 3:37pm every second Thursday.
6. Porphyrogenitus
Strange that you do not mention the Al’Lan Mandragoran maneuver. It worked wonders with Nynaeve, and only cost him a bruised shin, if I recall correctly.
5. AndrewHB
I think both of you are right on track – examining Faile’s reaction in light of her expectations – but I would go much farther (possibly only for the joy of being contrary).
I say, Faile did not expect to be spanked, and these are tears of contrition at her own behavior. Let’s see if I can explain what I mean.
Faile did not expect to be spanked. The correct Saldaean reaction would have been to shout at her, wave his arms about, berate her childishness. She would then happily perch on his shoulder, knowing that he was Man enough for her (because he showed a little spine) and that he cared for her (because his expression of Saldaean manliness was directed at her).
Instead, she gets this maddening Two Rivers passivity. He mumbles a request that she stop. He speaks softly. He asks. He doesn’t assert himself. It’s maddening! She’s going crazy trying to get a reaction from him – any reaction! – and instead she keeps getting this wet dishcloth. He’s almost as bad as a Malkieri, who won’t look a woman in the eye! Is he a man, or isn’t he? Does he like her, or doesn’t he? (The two are tied together in her mind). She goes overboard trying to provoke a reaction (slap, slap, punch) and she knows it.
And then what happens? He spanks her.
Spanks her. That is, not the gruff high-handedness of a first date, to show polite interest. Not the shouted instructions of the quarterback to the prom queen – in front of everyone at the prom – to indicate that he really likes her, and isn’t just acting out his role. Not the verbal tirade of the engaged couple, when she fusses too much about the wedding preparations.
A spanking. This is the real thing, folks. This is what husbands and wives do. Not teenagers fooling around. He thinks of me as wife material, even if he doesn’t realize it. That’s what Faile takes away from this incident. And maybe he does realize it? He’s taking her home to his family – sure, there’s a little war to fight first, but no matter – what’s going to happen when they get there? He spanked her! He must be picking out wedding rings in his head!
And what’s she been doing? Manipulating Loial. Suspecting him of Berelaining. Acting like a child. Does she want this relationship, or doesn’t she? Is she serious about this, or is she going to ruin it by acting like a teenager?
That’s where the tears come from. I’ve been such a fool. This is the point where she starts getting her act together. She sews his wound. It’s hard for her, so she shouts at him. Later she sews his coat. She starts supporting him. Taking care of him. She tells him to grieve when he can’t do it by himself. She comforts him. She stirs in Ila’s powder. She guides him in war, and encourages him when he suffers a defeat. She realizes she loves him, and accepts it.
10. Nick31
It’s not my can of gasoline, either, I’m the one who brought that pile of wildfire barrels.
12. AndrewHB
I think Faile is about 15-16 when she meets Perrin. The FAQ contains a discussion of her age, debunking the claim that she was 14 when she met him, though that claim did have some textual support, and the question was, in fact, frequently asked.
17. CireNaes
Your post made me go back and trawl through that thread. Shame on you! :)
18. Andrew
I agree with that, and with pretty much everything else you wrote. Perrin’s problem is that his culture provides him with no suitable reaction to Faile’s behavior. When he loses his patience, he grabs the closest thing he has to hand – a father’s reaction to his misbehaving daughter. In one of those twists of irony in which RJ seems to delight, this turns out to be precisely what he needed.
Edited to fix brain-freeze typo.
Also, this post does not appear on the wot-reread page (features/series/wot-reread/). Moderators?
Yay, I can comment for now. almuric said in the original post:
Trollocs must breed like Minks. How old do you think the average Trolloc warrior is? 18? And what do their women look like? And why/how do they sometimes give birth to Myrdraal? There’s nothing Trolloc-like about those guys. Trollocs are half-animal, half-human, right? There are wolf ones, and boar ones, and so on. So do they breed true? What happens if a wolf-mommy breeds with a boar-daddy? One of them’s dominant, like eye-color? No mixing of the animal types?
Responding now, if anyone cares:
It’s canon that Trollocs breed prolifically. Possibly like mink.
The “average Trolloc warrior’s age” could indeed be equivalent to 18, though the actual timespan would depend on how fast they mature. Remember, they’re made from many animal species which mature much faster than humans, a desirable trait for battlefield fodder.
Myrddraal are “throwbacks” to Trollocs’ human ancestors. I would think of it as getting the right combination of recessive genes, except that I don’t actually know genetics, whatever Aginor magically did probably threw what I do know out the window, and they sometimes produce stillborn pure-animal throwbacks as well. A Wizard Did It, and even he doesn’t know how. :-p
Good question. Individual Trollocs can have traits of multiple non-human animals — Narg had goat hooves with wolf muzzle, and some human soldier in ToM or AMoL “could’ve sworn he’d seen one twisted abomination with goat horns and eagle feathers.” But those are the only two we’ve been told about. Whether this means that one animal’s traits usually-but-not-always dominates another’s, or Trollocs usually-but-not-always breed with others showing the same animals’ traits, or we simply weren’t given enough flaming information, I can only guess.
Thanks for asking.
Had to come back to see what happened here once I realized what chapter was being covered. I was not part of the original debate. This one is much calmer.
Now I have to agree with @9. Faile has heard this “romantic” story about her parents for years. Now it’s happened to her. In a way her tear might be one of happiness. She’s thinking: “He spanked me just like daddy did to mother! He likes me! He really does like me!”
Which is messed up on many levels.
And since Perrin has not seen Gone with the Wind, he doesn’t know to grab her and kiss her at this point. – Again a messed up message.
But no, there were no guidelines for him. And Faile’s culture set her up for some strange expectations and displays of emotions.
@24 AeronaGreenjoy: Oops, I missed that wrinkle (and I even mentioned the Trollocs myself!). You’re quite right. I guess that just plays into Jordan’s continued theme that not only does evil not all come from the same place (though the ability to choose to do evil does all come from the Dark One), the different evils don’t get along and even see each other as anathema. The taint and Shadar Logoth destroy each other, and fight each other in Rand’s unHealing wound, Aginor calls Shadar Logoth an old enemy, Mashadar pursues and kills Shadowspawn…and Machin Shin finds Trollocs taste bad. What’s odd though is we know the Ways were darkened by the taint, not Mashadar, so you’d think Machin Shin would have an affinity for Trollocs. Either the Ways’ original opposition to the Shadow got carried over (the traps which killed the Shadowspawn were created by the male Aes Sedai), or whatever created Machin Shin is neither taint nor Mashadar. Or the taint draws it to the True Power-created Trollocs, but Machin Shin itself (whatever it is) just doesn’t like the taste. Strange.
Also @27, LOL at your last line…A Wizard Did It and doesn’t know how he did, perfect! As to your final question though, not sure. I got the impression various Trollocs combined species because that’s how Aginor magically grafted them. Whether those traits bred true long after he was sealed in the Bore and unable to guide the process himself (which would imply the reason we see so few Trollocs like this is because there weren’t many to begin with, and they either never bred with others or those traits didn’t carry through when they did), or they were able to be continued or recreated by later breedings between Trollocs with the constituent species, is anyone’s guess.
@25 Lancer: I am fairly sure many people on the original post said it was wrong for Faile to hit Perrin. Leigh for certain said so, both in the original post and this one. And I myself said it was wrong for her to do, as did others. I think it’s just a case of so many people going on about Perrin’s actions and their wrongfulness that the reprimanding of Faile got drowned out, overlooked, or even seen as too little, a sop made to bow perfunctorily toward gender equality before going back to the big issue of the spanking. (Note I am not saying that’s what Leigh or anyone genuinely thought or felt, but how it could have appeared.)
@26 JonathanLevy: That’s a very good reading of Faile’s rationale and feelings as well. While I still think Jordan had no idea how this would look to people, and that making Saldaea like this/creating this “no good choice” situation for Perrin was a mistake, your analysis makes a lot of sense and explains much. Especially the change in Faile’s behavior after this. (Although that could also be explained by Perrin doing “the right thing” in her eyes, or by her realizing she’d gone too far and done the wrong thing in general.)
@29: Jumara also think humans taste better than Trollocs, according to Fain (though how he knew that, we don’t know), who agrees with them. Trollocs eat each other, and carrion birds eat them with great enthusiasm. Birds won’t eat Myrddraal, but Mashadar will. It’s an interesting food web.
Quote from #21 macster:
This is SO WRONG. Nobody, especially a child, does deserve being hit by another person. There is no excuse for violence. Beatings do NOT make people better persons, they just make them afraid of beatings. If your girlfriend makes you mad – do you hit her, too? To make her a better, more well-behaved person? That you excuse your parents’ behaviour to yourself and actually think you deserved the violence makes me sad. And angry.
I think we spend a lot of time taking Faile’s culture into consideration but no time at all on taking Perrin’s culture into consideration. In Perrin’s culture, spanking is an acceptable form of punishment, however I’m not even sure it would be used in the TR – does anyone remember reading about these types of physical altercations going on at any time there? And also, we are in Perrin’s head at the time of this happening, and I don’t know if even he knows the expected response to a physical attack by a woman. This must be so alien that spanking was a natural reaction based on how his peers may have acted if they were faced with the same thing.
@31: I’m sorry you feel that way, but while I am glad you have sympathy for my situation (and for anyone who suffers violence), I really don’t think you have call to be either sad or angry on my behalf, let alone at me. (I say this because I’m not sure your anger was directed at my parents or at me.) Without getting into a long debate about the ethics and appropriateness of corporal punishment (short version: I agree there are lines which should not be crossed, that the situation must be watched carefully and punishment applied to any parent who goes too far, and there are times when it’s just not appropriate, but I don’t overall disagree with the practice and do think it can be both acceptable and effective), let me just say that I don’t agree with your assessment. Namely, not only were you not there to know what happened or judge if I actually had done wrong (and I most certainly had), but you are not in my head so you don’t get to tell me if a) I became a better person or not because of it or b) all they did was make me afraid of beatings. Obviously you have no way of knowing that, nor any reason to believe me, but even if spanking was something I was afraid of, that doesn’t mean I could not associate it with the thing it was used to punish me for–and thus it worked in that it kept me from repeating the behavior, in the same way you don’t put your hand in fire more than once.
I should also mention that it’s not as if spanking was a regular and constant punishment for me–in fact I can only recall it happening once or twice in my childhood, it was that effective a deterrent–and I also was bullied a great deal as a child and teenager. So not only do I know the difference between the kind of violence and beating a bully uses vs. physical punishment from a parent, but I can tell you I was quite strongly afraid of my bullies but not of my parents. And no, I don’t spank or beat my significant other. (I should note you seem to be conflating things there–I never said beating anyone was right, and in fact I agree there is no excuse for that. What I said was that I felt that sometimes, spanking is allowable. And then went on to say I didn’t think it was right for Perrin to spank Faile. Context.)
To sum up: I am not a Tinker following the Way of the Leaf. So while I do not condone violence as an answer in most situations (it is in fact a failure of civilization if it comes to that, IMO, but sometimes, especially after all other options have been tried, it is the only way to solve things), I do not believe it to be inherently bad or something which there can never be any excuse or justification for. And again, spanking (in the situations where I believe it is appropriate) is not the same as beating.
Well, we can boil corporeal punishment of children down to its essentials, and see what it is when stripped of its trappings: violence directed at a child. When we do that, it’s pretty easy to see that it’s unacceptable, or so it seems to me…
*shrugs* And you are welcome to that opinion, as I am to mine. But the point is that I don’t think it is right to judge me for that opinion, or tell me how I should feel about it, especially when I only mentioned it in the context of how I felt about Perrin spanking Faile. And I still stated that I thought what Perrin did was wrong, so focusing on this seems irrelevant as well as uncalled for.
Discovery: The WoT Companion says that Trollocs with traits from multiple non-human animals (and also those with paws or talons instead of hooves or human feet) are considered “unviable” and lethally exposed to the elements at birth, but occasionally survive and are sometimes unusually smart, like Narg. It doesn’t explain the why and how of all this, but gives me a mix of puzzlement and headcanon fodder.
I’d forgotten about that bit. Very intriguing indeed, and offers a lot of possibilities for fanfiction if nothing else!
Darn right it does. I spent hours yesterday composing Narg’s backstory based on that factoid.
@35 wasn’t trying to pass judgement…just noting that when someone beats a child, for whatever reason, what they are actually doing, is beating a child…
@39 Beating =/= spanking. At least not IMO, and those of a lot of people, actually. Obviously, and apparently, there is some disagreement on this, but I think it needs to be stated that I (and, I assume, most people who are not unilaterally against corporal punishment) am absolutely against actual beating and child abuse, consider it a terrible and abhorrent thing to do, and wish any who do it to be punished to the full extent of the law. Perhaps that was not clear. I just don’t happen to think spanking in and of itself necessarily is the same as that (note I said above in an earlier post that I believe parents need to be watched closely and make sure they don’t cross over from one into the other). You may disagree, but my point was that justifications aside, I don’t consider spanking to be beating. I think the former can be effective when done right and in moderation, the latter is wrong, and the former should be punished when it becomes the latter.
FWIW (and to bring this back on topic), I should note that neither this time nor on the original re-read did Leigh ever state or imply that she had a problem with spanking in and of itself, just in it being applied by one adult to another, particularly a man to a woman, and a man who loved that woman and saw her as a love interest, no less. Assuming Leigh is interested, she can correct me on this if I’m wrong about that, but if I’m right then the fact she doesn’t have a particular problem with actual children being spanked shows that this issue isn’t as clear-cut as people want to make it. And I really think we should leave it at that.
@Aerona: I want to see this backstory now, assuming you really did write it and it wasn’t a joke!
We made Leigh an honorary member of Team Spanking long ago…
@40 Whulp, what exactly is “spanking”? Does it involve striking someone? Does it involve a person striking someone a lot smaller / weaker than them? Would that not constitute “beating”?
The hangup, I suspect, is that the intent of a spanking is benign – to teach a rather sharp lesson, not soon to be forgotten, that the target of the spanking really really needs to learn. All I am saying is, try examining it without considering intent; what is it, in and of itself?
Regardless of what label is attached, an adult striking a child is just that: an adult striking a child. It is impossible not to characterize that as violence, whatever the intent.
Cheers,
zdrakec
Violence is completely a matter of intent. If I swing my arm around in a circle, not knowing someone is behind me, just because I feel like twirling in a circle, and knock someone upside the head, have a committed a violent act?
@anthony Pero: Something that’s not an act of cruelty can still be violent and need addressing. In your example, the appropriate response would be to apologize and ask if the person is injured, even if the act wasn’t intentional. I don’t feel able to judge how this works with regard to spanking children.
@macster: I hadn’t written it out as a story, but strove to imagine it. I started by wondering: if Trollocs like him are considered unviable and lethally exposed at birth, how is it that, as stated, they occasionally survive? One possibility is that a newborn still alive after a period of exposure would be considered strong enough to be worth raising. I went with another possibility, that the mothers might refuse to kill them. Trollocs are not loving creatures, to say the least, but RJ once said that females “give birth to litters,* and are quite fierce in defense of their children.” This indicates that Aginor sensibly gave them a strong maternal drive which counteracts their killing-drive enough to keep them self-replicating. So I headcanon that Narg’s littermates were all stillborn, so all of that maternal instinct focused on him, and a mother who would normally have killed him and cared for more “viable” young kept him alive instead. This doesn’t work with the suggestion, offered in a discussion on a WoT Facebook group, that Trollocs are raised communally from birth and thus there are no particular parental ties. But it works with my longtime headcanon that they’re tended by their own mothers until they can walk, then put in a communal crèche. By that time, Narg was strong enough to hold his own in fights with other children, aided by exceptional intelligence. His adulthood is harder to be sure about, because we don’t know if aberrations like him are permitted to breed. That would depend on how heredity works for Trollocs – which we really don’t know – and whether they’re aware of it, as well as whether their society has anything like rules or permissions. Perhaps he sired offspring, perhaps they were like him, perhaps they also lived, but I couldn’t back any of that with canon facts. In any case, he hunted for food and defended the community alongside other males, until whoever it is that gathers Trolloc armies took him for the group sent to attack the Two Rivers.
The multiple “Nargs” in the Facebook community may contest this backstory, but if they have different ones, I would like to hear those.
*I headcanon that this usually means twins or triplets, just because I have trouble imagining any humanoid having large “litters.” But that’s me. This factoid was stated in a book signing Q&A, and may have been made up on the spot, but in my desperation for Shadowspawn information, I take it as firm canon.
@44: My sole point was simply to quickly illustrate that, like most things, violence requires intent for it to be violence. At worst, the actions described are negligent. That’s why our legal system has more than one word for killing someone, because the intent matters for what the act is called.
@@@@@ 42: What Anthonypero said. The only way your point is relevant is if we define violence as simply being any act which harms another, regardless of intent. If that’s what you mean, then yes spanking would be violence. However, the amount of vitriol given against spanking (and your specific reason, I imagine, for disparaging spanking as “beating a child”) suggests to me the implied assumption that just because the act is directed against a child, and it can be defined as violence, this makes it wrong and bad and anyone who defends it is also wrong and bad. Which, no. Basically, no matter how much you claim that you aren’t judging, you totally are. And as laudable as it is to want to defend children (particularly from actual abuse), simply using the same broad brush to define both abuse and spanking as violence ignores that intent is everything. If you consider intent to matter, then spanking is not violence; if you don’t, then it is, but then violence in turn becomes something which is not always wrong in context–which can certainly be defended considering the number of times violence has been the only way in which conditions have improved at all throughout history.
To sum up: simply declaring that spanking is violence isn’t a QED that wins your argument, because to do so you have to dismiss intent, and even if it is violence this does not make it automatically wrong. No, not even against children. Context. This is why parents are not regularly taken to court and convicted of child abuse just for using corporal punishment on their children. There are legal definitions to adhere to, evidence to consider, before one type of violence (to use your definition) becomes the other kind. Having such laws and processes in place helps ensure abuse will be punished when recognized, without preventing parents from ever disciplining their children at all. If you want to argue parental discipline should never include such an action, that’s a valid argument to make and opinion to hold, but it doesn’t magically make all spanking into abusive violence that must be punished. I.e., if you want me to agree with you that spanking is a form of violence by removing intent from consideration, I can do so, but that doesn’t mean I’ll ever agree with you that this makes it always wrong or a form of violence that can never be allowed and must always be punished.
And in any event, no, I cannot and will not examine the matter without intent, because intent is critical. It does not matter that spanking involves one who is larger and more powerful applying force to one who is smaller and weaker/inferior, if the intent is, as you yourself admit, benign. That changes the equation. If you are trying to teach someone a lesson, and the teaching in question is one you hope never to have to repeat (but will if there’s no other choice), that is very different from beating someone smaller/weaker/inferior simply because you can, because you enjoy it, because you are contemptuous of them and their worth, because you’re angry, or any of the other reasons someone commits actual abuse, child or otherwise. Intent is what changes the action in question from violence which you can personally consider wrong and never wish to employ but which others are still allowed to do, to a crime that can be prosecuted.
@@@@@ Aerona: That may just be your headcanon, but it makes a lot of sense to me. It’s also quite sad, and makes me feel quite sorry for Narg. He may have meant Rand harm (and after how/where he was raised, not to mention the Dark One’s touch on his soul, it’d be pretty hard for him to be any other way), but he’s still rather pitiful, and it’s a shame one as smart as he was couldn’t have turned out differently. Of course I understand why Jordan made the Trollocs all always evil and irredeemable so that the heroes could kill them in large numbers without moral qualms, but it might have been interesting to see ones who weren’t that way, who could choose to be different…and I expect the smarter Trollocs are the ones it could have been possible for. (I also have to reiterate that I hope Rand is right, and certain people’s threads aren’t always doomed to be spun out as Trollocs in every turning of the Wheel. To always belong to the Dark One like that is very unfair…and yes, the Wheel and Pattern are neutral, but…)
46, the Trollocs are certainly an example of the tendency of many works to dismiss and dispose of groups of beings (even human) without much consideration of the representative value of it. Of course, this can even apply to individual characters. It’s all too easy not to feel empathy for the designated bad guys. Now in WOT, given that Ishmael was a noted philosopher as Elan Moran Morai, it’d be interesting to see his actual competent arguments, but I think we mostly ended up getting that swept aside. Still, we do get it through Rand himself, how many people think he’s purely crazy, when he’s actually doing something not unintelligent? It is worth looking at other works though, Jacqueline Carey for example has The Sundering (that’s also vastly shorter), and Terry Pratchett’s The Truth manages to subvert his own works. Actually, Pratchett in general manages that. A character in one books can be much less benign in another.
On the spanking issue, I’d point out that you are well-done in much of your analysis, but don’t forget that punishment can be rehabilitative in nature, yet still termed to be punishing. Word-choice can lead to unnecessary friction in arguments, I’ve found.
@46: Thank you. I recently learned that one of the internet Nargs has a very fine headcanon of Narg’s Wheel of Time POV, with backstory fragments that fit remarkably well with my envisioning of Trolloc society (we probably scrounged the same info from the same sources) but mention his (living) littermates. Thus it differs from my theory at why he was allowed to live but doesn’t give an alternate explanation. I didn’t mind much.
@@@@@ 47: I admit to also being curious about some of Elan Morin Tedronai’s philosophy before he went bad (it had to be good, or at least viable and reasonable, for him to be so successful and celebrated he earned his third name). And you’re right that the bits of it we get via Rand/Lews Therin are rather fascinating, and not necessarily wrong. As for feeling for the bad guys, well I do have to admit to feeling sympathy for both Asmodean and Lanfear. So there’s that.
Re: punishment, good point. But I would contend that those taking issue with me on this matter aren’t wanting to punish parents who spank their children in order to rehabilitate them, they just want to condemn them. Or, I presume, have them never do it in the first place. All of which still ignores the reasons and intents behind why they are doing it.
@@@@@ Aerona: Awesome! And as a corollary to what I said in the last post, I would actually have been quite interested in seeing a Trolloc defect, especially if he could shed light on his culture and help the heroes against those who abused him.
49, oh, I could probably come up with sympathy for all of the Forsaken, even Moghedien if I wanted to try. The jealous ones are easy, it can be hard not to see somebody praised, yet perhaps their feet of clay are ignored, or for say, Semirhage, ok, she’s a tough one, but I can sympathize with not wanting to be stilled or oath rodded. I may have to work for a bit on the Spider though.
As for that latter, I don’t know the people taking issue with you, or their thinking, but I also can’t deny that there are people whose motivations are less than pure, let alone their thinking, so I’d just note that while that can be a problem in the particular, it may not be so in the general.
I don’t think we’d ever see a Trolloc or Myrdraal defect though, or any of the Shadowspawn, I couldn’t even say that Asmodean truly did, so much as he was cut off and had no other choice.